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bizpro

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1

Samstag, 5. Mai 2007, 10:50

Discussion / feedback

Here we can discuss ideas posted in the brainstorming thread.
Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new
Wer niemals einen Fehler gemacht hat, hat noch nie etwas neues probiert Albert Einstein

Builder

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2

Sonntag, 6. Mai 2007, 11:18

I have read Bt's posts and Starstucks ideas. Maby I haven't understood all. But i think that banning tricks ist not so easys. There is no Trick more honorable than others.

Even turkis bulding is a trick. Mayabe als blocks over 4 are tricky.

It's easier to readt about a trick then to use it perfectly. F.e. the beer trick had not worked when i tryed it in 2006.

Turkish building needs a lot of knowledge and time.

Capturing white Ships without ship weapons is another trick.

The satisfaction points where a try to eleminate teh effect of tricks.

If points are given for cv the cash should not count. It not the claim to make max. money beause it is to easy.

To give points on inhabitants has to make shure that not mor points are reacabele if you decrease the numbers of one fraction.

To count on satisfaction is one step but not all.


Maybe another way is to limit the possibel production of basic goods. Grain, fish, wood. But if someone can build turkis style his limits are higher.

I think that it si possible to play whitout tricks. But there is no possibility to control and it kills fun.

The diffferent ways for an expanding Hanse are the heart of this game and should not limited.

If ther is one major goal and all players try to copy the spirit is killed.
Niemand braucht ein einfaches Spiel! Ein gutes Spiel reicht!

Für die Dunkle Seite! Auch Piraten wollen Handeln!

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Builder« (6. Mai 2007, 11:23)


Starstruck

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3

Sonntag, 6. Mai 2007, 11:34

Zitat

I think that it si possible to play whitout tricks. But there is no possibility to control and it kills fun.


I don't see a need to "control" play without exploits. Players are capable of controlling themselves, and if someone decides to cheat, so what? Everyone else will still enjoy the contest.

I would say that what kills fun is the removal of most fun aspects of the game - keeping an economy, having to make ships. Instead there's just tedious clicking to make free money, grant insane amounts of loans, and capture hundreds of pirate ships. I think I can do that as well as anyone, but the alternative is more fun.

bizpro

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4

Sonntag, 6. Mai 2007, 21:00

Anglo Saxon Law says that everybody is innocent until proven guilty :D

If the contest restricts use of exploits, or outright bans all of them, then everybody who has an honest bone in him/herself will abide by the rule. We don't need a Police State in a friendly game.

@ Man of the C:
Yes, the contest is challenging for new players, but, without it, would you have learned as much? Is it still fun?
Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new
Wer niemals einen Fehler gemacht hat, hat noch nie etwas neues probiert Albert Einstein

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5

Sonntag, 6. Mai 2007, 23:47

Zitat

Originally posted by bizpro
Anglo Saxon Law says that everybody is innocent until proven guilty :D

1 If the contest restricts use of exploits, or outright bans all of them, then everybody who has an honest bone in him/herself will abide by the rule. We don't need a Police State in a friendly game.

@ Man of the C:
2Yes, the contest is challenging for new players, but, without it, would you have learned as much? Is it still fun?


1. Some things are absolutely exploits, but others I am not so sure about.
Take the idea of using sucker ships. I have to believe Ascaron knew that could be done. I feel the same about tavern missions for pirate ships and capturing them. I think there might be a better way to classify the types of games that could be played. In the future, I will write some recommendations regarding this, but I need much more game play before I do that!!

2. No, I would not have learned so much about the game as fast as I have had I not plunged myself into the contest. I'm glad I did.
Is it still fun? Well, not as much as in the past but I think that it will get better once I get past some of the other learning curves. I realize that this has a lot to do with the individual's mindset (in this case my own) as to how the game is approached.
In contest 2007, I became more concerned with the (not pulling my team down in the standings ;)) evaluations than the free flowing mix of my previous solitary game. I am a bit like what Starstruck said in one of postings - you gave me a goal and conditions and I'm trying to achieve that.
There are many other gamers who are talented with gaming and computers but that has not been in my experience. It has taken me quite a bit of time to get myself wrapped around the whole experience. I go thru stages of having fun and of frustration, as I'm sure all who play this have done. I really enjoy the game and will continue to learn. I realize it has been years for some of the players since they first started playing the game but I still haven’t even built a wall or an NPT yet. :giggle: That is old hat for many of the contestants.
That is why I think a simpler contest game should be in the mix. :)

Builder

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6

Montag, 7. Mai 2007, 09:31

I think the fun in the game is the varity of possibilitis to reach a Target.

Fro myself I like to fight priates but I dont like to capture white ones because it's boring to hunt fleeing ships.

Towns a plundered with outrigger Trick I'm able to do this whitout but it takes more time.

Fighting wiht one cogg against 4 Pirate and capture all is challenging. To sink all ist boring.

This is my way. In the contest i lerned manny things i had never done before.

What is the game if everybody starts whit 100 Ships and 3.000.000 Cash.?
Niemand braucht ein einfaches Spiel! Ein gutes Spiel reicht!

Für die Dunkle Seite! Auch Piraten wollen Handeln!

Amselfass

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7

Donnerstag, 23. August 2007, 21:43

Zitat

Originally written by elite64:
Since i don't know how easy/hard a save game could be analized, if it's done by hand or with a program ...


Just as an answer to the quoted paragraph:
The juror's analysis is done completely manually, no programs for reading out values etc. Personally, I use the form provided by Hopsing where I can write the data into, then I have to copy it into the PC and submit it via e-mail. Admittedly, reading out the values is the most boring part of the process (in no way comparable with creating the comment), so I would always be happy if it was reduced to a minimum. However, if it doesn't take an hour or two to do all those formal things in the upcoming contest, I won't protest...

elite64

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8

Donnerstag, 23. August 2007, 22:10

@amselfass
ty for your reply. Bad news, 'cause that means monthly judged save games are out of scope.

Maybe there are some Hex - Experts out there who could put their fingers on some electronical aids for our most valued judges?
A tool which does the following screening on a mouse click:
a) all contest relevant numbers
b) used convoi routes
c) history

and fills a neat excel / open office sheet.
I admit i don't have time to dig me through tons of savegames, but maybe Ascaron could/would help with the layout of the save game structure.
BY NO MEANS it would result in a cheating tool / trainer! It would ONLY be used as an aid for a living community and their contests.

elite64

Edit Amselfass: Moved our discussion to the "discussion / feedback" thread as stated in bizpro's introduction posting.
Piraten? Nein! Schiffslieferanten!!!

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Starstruck

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9

Freitag, 24. August 2007, 14:19

Another alternative would be to write some basic scripts to analyse saved pictures of the annual charts.

Eg for the current contest - a juror opens the quality of life picture for a town, prints it to screen, crops & saves it in paint/photoshop etc. and then feeds it into something else which reads out an average happiness. That would still be considerably more work for the juror than the current system, but would effectively let you average 12 monthly readings from one save.

Unfortunately impossible with graphs that don't show the min/max marks I think ?(.

bizpro

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10

Freitag, 24. August 2007, 23:46

How about if every player keeps track and submits readouts for every month. There will be some ability to verify "strange" claims on the satisfaction curve. That way, jurors do not have more work.

There are some changes in the formula I would like to see. Satisfaction should be pro-rated. So, if one town with 10,000 citizens has satsifaction of 6/6/6 and another of 5,000 has satisfactions of 5/5/5 the average would not be 5.5 but rather 5.7 accross. We currently do it only for the social structure.
Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new
Wer niemals einen Fehler gemacht hat, hat noch nie etwas neues probiert Albert Einstein

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von »bizpro« (24. August 2007, 23:47)


elite64

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11

Samstag, 10. November 2007, 22:34

Update to save game analysis

Hi!
I wrote to Ascaron for the layout of P2/3 save games. I will let you know what they answered (if ever) asap.
Piraten? Nein! Schiffslieferanten!!!

Amselfass

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12

Samstag, 10. November 2007, 23:44

Great step. :170: We'll see what it will finally return, but not only for the contest, but also for many other reasons, a hint concerning the file structure would be a fantastic find.

elite64

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13

Freitag, 16. November 2007, 03:53

Ascaron answered

Hi folks!
Bad news from Ascaron. In short words: NO info, game too old, thank's for your e-mail, bla bla.
IMHO noone read my e-mail, sounds rather like an automatic response.
If someone knows one of the ascaronis, pls ask - otherwise there will be no tool for us. It takes too long to dig through the save files. :(


Zitat


Hallo,

leider kann ich Ihnen hierzu keine Auskunft geben.

Da das Spiel ja bereits etwas älter ist, kann ich leider keine Informationen hierzu auftreiben.

Ich bedanke mich dennoch für das Feedback. Es freut uns, dass auch heute noch eine große Nachfrage nach dem Titel Patrizier 2 besteht.

Sollten Sie weitere Fragen oder Anregungen haben stehen wir Ihnen gerne wieder zur Verfügung.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
i. A.
Jan Walczak
techn. Service & Support

---

Ascaron Entertainment GmbH
Verler Str. 6
D-33332 Gütersloh
Phone: +49 5241 96690
Fax: +49 5241 9666-110
Email: service@ascaron.com
Web: http://www.ascaron.com
Handelsregister: Gütersloh HRB 4193
Geschäftsführer: Holger Flöttmann
Piraten? Nein! Schiffslieferanten!!!

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von »elite64« (16. November 2007, 03:57)


Steersman

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14

Sonntag, 18. November 2007, 16:58

As an addendum to my suggestions on the other thread, and for discussion, the lack of arbitrage, and the return of the economic basis of the game - no way to capture and sell four or five holks a week for hundreds of thousands in cash, no unlimited cash from arbitrage and its variants, and no way to make the rounds without indictment to rob city treasuries - puts limits on things like Turkish building.

Keep it at patrician settings. Hard to please population, no easy profits in trade. And for the especially tough start, perhaps the "no ship" beginning point is not a bad idea either.

Steersman

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15

Mittwoch, 5. Dezember 2007, 01:40

Is this section dead?

Builder

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16

Mittwoch, 5. Dezember 2007, 12:57

I dont think so.

But for manny germans it's not so easy to write in english.

In my oppinion ist not so esasy to make a game witch dosent prefer som types of players.

Arbitage is easy to cancel. Plundering and captureng not. Ists a Prat of the gam if you do it without any Trick.

S/L is the biggest problem. Who can say weather you save a game due to lack of time or to aviod a problem.

Swartenhengst suggestet to make a contest witch aims to get all different memorials possible.

This may be makes the goal independent from earnig money and citizens per time.

It will force all playres to discoer witch actions are needet to get a special Memorial and bring this strategy to efficency.
Niemand braucht ein einfaches Spiel! Ein gutes Spiel reicht!

Für die Dunkle Seite! Auch Piraten wollen Handeln!

Amselfass

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17

Donnerstag, 6. Dezember 2007, 18:24

Zitat

Original von Steersman
Is this section dead?


It seems so, sadly. There's currently not too much board activity in the English section of the forum, so it would be some sort of useless to post ideas here with nobody reading them. However, the section is not dead in the sense of being locked up - your ideas are still welcome. IMHO, it would be more useful to post suggestions in the German part (or alternatively post them here and ask someone for translation).