Dreaming for 2007

  • Ah, dearest Anne, you must be a riot to go on a vacation with! Why plan tomorrow or the day after when we are still in today? As far as meals go, I shop once or twice a week. I find it disappointing when I decide on one meal to discover I lack the necessary ingredients, always have an idea of what lies ahead and prepare for it. I also lay out several year plans for gardening, research plants well before I decide which I will go with. But then again, it is largely a matter of temperment. Physicians are perhaps the ultimate time binders, in high school I set out upon a path it took thirteen years to complete. And so, I don't find it foolish to take a look around while playing 2006 and think about how I would like things to be different in 2007.


    By the way, I knew before supper yesterday what I would be having today. It's my birthday, and a nice dinner awaits at Papadeaux, a lovely Cajun style restaurant. I have been looking forward to some nice blacked redfish and dirty rice for a while, and it didn't spoil the steak I ate yesterday either. :150:

  • Re: Starting date


    As Gesil pointed out in the German subforum, it is not ideal to start the new contest immediately after the previous one has ended. For those like Gesil who have worked till the last minute on completing their game it is not exactly inspiring if no one appreciates their effort because there are so many exciting new things like pirate nests and captains on the new contest map. And that were 6 participants in 2005 and even 9 in 2006.


    Like the football season it might be a good thing to wait a month before starting again. This might even encourage players to submit late saves (out of competetion, of course).

  • Food or thought?


    Baltic Trader: I don't plan for the next day, I buy what's fresh and available for a reasonable price. We no not have supermarkets that get fresh shipments from around the world every day. And, especially in the winter, we really have to scrounge. If you have to eat muskox several days in a row, you for sure don't won' t to spoil you supper by nowing what's for dinner the next day. ;) Unfortunatley, thanks to my job, I am not my own cook for a great deal of time. An when I go in vacation, I never know where I go, unless it's Wednesday when one restaurant has a super seafood buffet. Gulf shrimps ,large and crisp; smoked black cod and Alaskan king crab.


    If you want a "cool off period" between games, then end the game on December 1st. Early January is for some of us the best time to start since as of mid/end January we are busy.

  • So very sad. Perhaps you could try different spices? I wonder what blackened muskox, or muskox parmigana, or muskox strogonoff would taste like? But I suppose that fire is only avaible in summer, so tartare is the usual dish. :giggle:


    January through March are very busy times for me. In short, no perfect time for everyone exists. So again, what is wrong with an overlap in time? It lets the people who are near to the finish complete, and the late comers something to do.

  • One other suggestion might be, through the wonders of file manipulation, to use the same game for traders as for pirates, but give a number of extra ships and a few million cash to start.


    Not a bad idea, takes care of the differences at the start.

  • Swartenhengst made a comparison from previous contests.
    http://www.patrizierforum.net/…d=&postid=18531#post18531
    I shows that the average pirate is lagging the average trader already by the end of 1302, so what's the point iin separating them?
    In what type of game is there a need to separate them? If you want to treat everbody equaly, you eliminate CV and the timefactor completely and, bingo, everbody is equal.

    Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new
    Wer niemals einen Fehler gemacht hat, hat noch nie etwas neues probiert Albert Einstein

  • @ Baltic Trader:


    I wonder how long it took you to translate your posting. Why don't you post the originals here; I am sure they will be translated and placed in the appropriate thread within a few days.


    BtW, Babbelfish is only marginal in its ability to translate anything above grade 1 English. This is Spot, see Spot run, Spot is my dog...... Dieses ist Punkt, sehen(infinitiv of to see instead of 2nd/3rd person) Punkt zu laufen, Punkt ist mein Hund...... Dies ist Punkt, sieh Punkt laufen, Punkt ist mein Hund would be the "normal" choice, possibly not 100% gramatically correct but translated in a way Germans speak - at least the ones I am/have been, in contact with.

  • Unfortunately I was "locked out" for most of this week. The portal was, and still is, off line.


    Anne Bonny is right, whenever there is soemthing of importance I do translate it both ways.


    Other than that I remain at a distance from the conteat2007 thread (haven't opened it for some time and don't intend to); I have posted my views and, since nobody seems to care for the suggestions, decided to wait and see what the rest of the year will bring. It's just a waste of space to repost what has been said already. IMHO it would be nice to get away from the population hunt and into trade/commerce/logistics instead.


    As Baltic Trader said in one of his emails, it would be nice to learn soemthing new. Once we know how to make endles rows, and have no desire to build seamless, a similar contest would just be like replaying the contests of 2005/2006 all over again. I might do that sometimes but am looking for another area to learn/improve.

    Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new
    Wer niemals einen Fehler gemacht hat, hat noch nie etwas neues probiert Albert Einstein

  • I typed the letter, and copied it into Babelfish, and added my apologies at the top. Reading Babelfish is a riot when you control key and key c, control key and key v into it from the German posts and read what it translates. But I often get the gist. That is why I said feel free to clean it up. So, typing the letter took about twenty minutes. Babelfish does the translation in about a half minute. And I haven't a clue about German grammar constructions. En Espanol, si; in German, no. My high school offered Spanish, French, and Latin. I was in Florida, and have never regretted learning what I know of it. Here I have many familes who are Mexican, and they are very appreciative when I make the effort to speak to them in their language.


    Just how much of a laugh was the translation? :)


    And Bizpro, actually, if the translations are accurate from Babelfish and I didn't misunderstand, the ideas about different price schedules for intermediate and advanced levels of play, and a better focus on trade/commerce/logistics have several thinking about it. For example, I wrote about how furs to the Med, or iron goods and wine to America, etc, was profitable at Patrician level, but not so worthwhile at our current pricing, and that the strategy and games are quite different. And I suggested (I think!!!) building the mints in the 16 Hanse cities, too.


    Meanwhile, I am having fun, and the Lord Mayor of Lagoda is building Aalborg. With many thanks to Bizpro. :170:

  • Building mints is something we both agree upon.


    I had the priviledge of growing up in Europe where speaking just one language does not get you very far. Actually, in highschool we had to learn two foreign languages. Then come the languages you should learn because you spend your vactions there and, bingo, you're up to 4 or 5 in no time.


    Rest assured, you did suggest building mints. Do you by any chance still have the original? Working off it might be faster than trying to clean up babbelfish.


    If you follow the Aalborg example in other cities, you should have no problem beating my final population by at least 50,000.

    Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new
    Wer niemals einen Fehler gemacht hat, hat noch nie etwas neues probiert Albert Einstein

  • If someone would be so kind, please summarize the points on the German language 2007 contest thread of the past couple of days. I am not sure that I understand what is being proposed. It looks like various penalties, requests for 40 city maps, hard to make out with Babelfish.


    I like the city building, would suggest that 4 or 5 new cities be possible.


    And about Mayor of Smyrna, other than banging his own drum, has he had anything meaningful to contribute over here? On other boards, all he liked to do was brag and shared nothing about anything in the game.

  • Since I have to pack, I don't have the time to translate all the pages. Here are the key points:


    Objectives

    • Use a map with 40 towns and decide how many you want to build up completely
    • Use a map with 40 towns that have restricted availalbity of good, which will not enable a complete buildup. Develop the Hanse as best as you can.
    • Starting with a "bad" game, bring up the Hanse to a certain level
    • Start with 22 cities that have their historic capabilties in regard to production of goods.
    • Supply the Hanse completely with key goods through own production


    Conditions/ Points

    • Piracy and arbitrage are either forbidden completely or forbidden after a grace period.
    • Stiff penalites for attacks by sea or land, regardless if the attackers are priates, the prince, bandits or yourself.
    • Stiff penalties if automatic sales do not exceed automatic purchases by a certain amount/ratio
    • Teamplay where a team is comprised of cracks, intermediates and newbies. One player starts and passes after x months of gameplay the save to the next player.
    • Teamplay where points are awarded to a team instead of individuals.
    • Limit play to the end of 1310. Early finish gives bonus points.
    • Get bonus points for certain goals, i.e. development of a new production town every x months (on map with less than 24 starting towns).
    • Moving from town to town is prohibited. Each player must remain in the home town at startup.


    My apologies to anybody who's concepts have not been reflected here. Please feel free to addd to the list. I will be on my way soon and am not back until Canada Day (July 1)

    Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new
    Wer niemals einen Fehler gemacht hat, hat noch nie etwas neues probiert Albert Einstein

  • I don't know where to air my comments / preferences, so I'll do it here.


    For starters, I hope the game spans an entire year again otherwise weekend players, like myself are at a huge disadvantage. Also, there are times during the year where I am to busy to think of playing. That's one of the reasons why I started late.


    Of the listed objectives the start with 22 cities appeals the most to me, especially if the supply does not allow for a complete buildup. I don't think that I can finish a complete buildup but we will see.
    My second choice would be 100% supply through own production of key goods. I assume that would be items such as wine, furs, cloth and pottery since, without basic supplies, the Hanse does not fare well.


    Regarding the condition etc:
    Prohibition of piracy is ridiculous. It's an integral part of the game design. Firstly, there are pirates run by the AI and secondly we got all the tools, and instructions, on how to pirate. I agree that some tricks are not explained in the manual, but that does not mean that, as a result, all piracy should be banned.
    Penalizing a player for sieges is absolutely ludicrous. Who on earth dreamed up that concept, did someone put something in his/her coffee? The same goes for auto-buying penalties. Why do I have to do a click orgy instead of hoarding goods for the winter through auto-buying by thee administrator?
    Team play? If it’s by regional teams, like team NewWorld and others as in the current statistics, it’s lopsided for teams that have one crack, or more, amongst them. Who’s going to assign the teams?
    Continuing to play on a game that someone else started, is going to be very difficult, especially for greenhorns like me.
    Early finish bonus? So cracks get not only top marks for beating everybody in population, # of businesses etc, but they get an additional bonus since they are done faster? Let’s see, in the extremely unlikely event that I should reach a population equal to Swartenhengst’s I will not only loose points because it’s simply impossible to get the required CV of umpteen billions, but he gets additional points for finishing early? Well, I don’t have the time to spend 10 real-time hours, or more, per game months to optimize all facets of my game, after all, it’s a game not studies of economics.


    An enjoyable game for me is one that has:

    • A low setting of piracy since fending off 5 –6 pirates every month is just distracting from the game. What’s the purpose of such a setting – to give bragging rights to those who control them the fastest?
    • No town with a complete supply chain. Ships are meant to haul raw materials to one port and then finished goods back.
    • Production of raw materials and finished goods in the historic places. That means no whalers in the Baltic Sea.
    • Freedom to make money in any way as one pleases.
  • @Patrician Jr: I am not really wild about a crippled game, which is what an insufficient supply system is. Being allowed to build up perhaps four new cities would be interesting, especially if the efficient goods can be manipulated.


    Piracy is for many a crutch. It is harder, much more so, to build a working economic system when you don't have the option of raiding cities for cash to rescue a floundering game. Playing without piracy is a real test of a player's skill, thriving despite economic competition. A lot of players can't play without it; I suggested putting a limit on it, of several months, rather than just divide the games. As far as realistic and integral parts of the game goes, I think the S/L to avoid indictment, which is a random factor but also a designed and integral element of the game, is a joke. Pirate, save before capture, capture, save, fast forward to see if you are caught, if so, reload and wait another tic before capture, etc. You can't tell me that is a part of the game. I would recommend prohibiting the S/L, it puts everyone on a fair and even game. Easy enough to check, too. If a player nabs 10 or 20 ships, he surely would be caught once, and the indictment, trial (with the DESIGNED bribery part of the game) would be a matter of record; ditto a city raid, (ditto discoveries without exploration, too). Multiple captures, never caught, obviously cheating. Sure, allow it as designed, as an essential and integral element. Just don't adjust the game to avoid your penalty and the chance to pay bribes, play it (and pay for it too) as it was really intended to be played.


    Arbitrage is just free money, another crutch which a good player hardly needs. Not economically realistic to be able to sell hundreds of goods repeatedly you just bought for a profit, rebuy and keep reselling for a profit. It's just a game glitch after all, not really different basically from a Hex editor. Players here want it "to hurry things along". We in our contests allowed autobuying, and autoselling, but didn't let arbitrage run; ditto the Gold Nugget exploit. It made for a more challenging game, a tougher test of ability again, and was "as designed". I think that some of those suggestions about penalties were to rule out arbitrage.


    Dense building, Turkish style, I have no problems with an endless row, or long blocks of six, eight or ten, but look a bit differently upon totally filling up space where realistically some type of road should be.


    Team play, interesting thought, hard to implement, hard to balance. I too have limited time to play, one reason I am lagging in submissions. You and I would be awful on such a team.


    I believe the higher piracy settings were designed to allow the white doves to get more ships, and put them on more of a par with pirating players. Doesn't really work, should include the penalties and indictments or the categories really should be completely divided. White dove is much more challenging to play well. As mentioned before, a Patrician level of pricing should be the rule for advanced players, and with a similar map, Merchant or similar easy pricing for more novice players, should be set up. An easier endpoint, like complete buildout of one city, could motivate more novice level players. Our contests had quicker endpoints like that in general, and encouraged a lot of participation. Not a lot of novices will get very far in these contests here.


    I don't have any problem with supply chain towns, grow them enough there is always something they won't grow further without. You can't have everything in one town, after all. Lastly, the oil was originally called train oil. The words were archaic, but meant essentially any marine oil, from fish oil to whale, but definitely also meant seal oil. It was train oil in P2, retranslated but mistranslated as whale oil in P3, just like pig iron was originally listed as iron ore, which it definitely wasn't. Harp and hooded seals especially were hunted, in Russia as well as Stockholm and most of Scandinavia in general. So, "train oil" in the Baltic was realistic, and was part of Patrician 2.


    My 2 cents, friend.

  • Zitat

    Original von Baltic Trader
    @Patrician Jr: I am not really wild about a crippled game, which is what an insufficient supply system is. Being allowed to build up perhaps four new cities would be interesting, especially if the efficient goods can be manipulated.


    Why is a game crippled that does, i.e., not have enough ore to allow 1M citizens but "merely" 600,000? And, as you said, you can manipulate what will be produced in the new towns, a factor that the programmers probably did not intend to leak out.


    Zitat

    Piracy is for many a crutch. It is harder, much more so, to build a working economic system when you don't have the option of raiding cities for cash to rescue a floundering game.


    I recall reading coments from you in the Ascaron board on how to pirate. Why the change of flag, is it because of your new avtar? IMHO piracy is a game setting rather than a crutch. When I played PR2 I did not get LoM, did not take towns for Governors but I did take the odd supply arriving from Europe and plundered the odd port just for the fun of it. In the end I was Master of The Seas too. Why are you so adament in bepriving us of our fun?


    Zitat

    As far as realistic and integral parts of the game goes, I think the S/L to avoid indictment, which is a random factor but also a designed and integral element of the game, is a joke. Pirate, save before capture, capture, save, fast forward to see if you are caught, if so, reload and wait another tic before capture, etc. You can't tell me that is a part of the game.
    I would recommend prohibiting the S/L, it puts everyone on a fair and even game. Easy enough to check, too. If a player nabs 10 or 20 ships, he surely would be caught once, and the indictment, trial (with the DESIGNED bribery part of the game) would be a matter of record; ditto a city raid, (ditto discoveries without exploration, too). Multiple captures, never caught, obviously cheating. Sure, allow it as designed, as an essential and integral element. Just don't adjust the game to avoid your penalty and the chance to pay bribes, play it (and pay for it too) as it was really intended to be played.


    Of the over 30 ships that I took off the hands of the white fleet in the beginning, I got only 2 indictments. From flattening the towers I NEVER got an indictment. I got two for pilfering where I was prohibited to trade - so what. Never lost a cent since my administrator did all the trading for me. So what's unrealistic about that? Have a look in my chronicle, you'll see the indictments. And, unless you are clairvoyant, you will not be able to proof that someone used S/L. Since we are at S/L, don't you use that excessively yourself to explore and obtain contracts? Not this boy! I doubt that the desginers had in mind that you use S/L to send ships umpteen times into the Med or to America to discover trading stations. So where does that practice fit into playing the game as it was designed?


    Zitat

    Arbitrage is just free money, another crutch which a good player hardly needs.


    And that from the originator of arbitrage ?( ?( ?( Where would you stand in this contest withouy arbitrage? And don't tell me that you are not using it. More likely you use it at an advanced level like Ugh! et al. And how do you intend to check if soemone did use level 1 arbitrage in one port. Just 2,000 coins a day or so in profit still adds up and, especially in the first years when you buy a lot of building materials, it will not become aparent. In the end you might have a heated discussion between a juror who thinks that arbitrage was done and a player getting extremely ticked off because he didn't do it. Instead, he bought a lot of stock for the winter plus all the building materials he could lay his hands on. I too have seen saves where players (cracks) buy building materials up to sky-high prices. For example, bricks bought at 200 are hardly for resale.


    Zitat

    Team play, interesting thought, hard to implement, hard to balance. I too have limited time to play, one reason I am lagging in submissions. You and I would be awful on such a team.


    Now here's something we can agree on. :D The only way would be if you added up the points of the individual players, who all play their own games just like now. But, as stated in my post, that would be lopsided. For example, when you submit your first save our team will take a nosedive since you are just in 1300 and have, overall, less points then the rest of us, no matter how good you were in the first year.


    Zitat

    I believe the higher piracy settings were designed to allow the white doves to get more ships, and put them on more of a par with pirating players.


    I'm willing to bet that the desingers did not waste a second on such a consideration. Just as in any game there are settings that a player can change to his/her liking. If it was for me, I would play without any pirates. At that setting I might be less tmepted to avail myself of white ships since I don't need a good fleet to start out with in order to fight those pirate convoys.


    Zitat

    Our contests had quicker endpoints like that in general, and encouraged a lot of participation. Not a lot of novices will get very far in these contests here.


    I looked at when some of the players joined, there seem to be a lot of novices in this game, including myself. How far will I get? That will depend mainly on my avaialble time. But I hope to reach 1310. And, if last year's contest is any indication, only a few will get that far. So, where will I stand at the end? Probably too high up for my skill level simply because I may have had mre time than better players.
    Do I enjoy this contest? Yes, to a certain extent but I will not play in another with similar goals or such a convoluted point system.
    I had to hide over 40M just to carry it into the next year. There should never be a penalty for making money too fast nor to more or less mandating arbitrage just to be able to get as close as possible to the rediciolous CV values.


    So here's the reverse of your 2-cent bit :D
    As you can see, I am bored in my hotel room that comes with free internet access :170:
    I shall be back home soon where I will become less vocal and should have soem time to play.

  • Wow, you are bored, aren't you?


    I couldn't tell if the crippled game was the 40 city map one, or if someone had in mind a 26. Of course, simple deduction can unveil the designer goods city idea. Doesn't take a rocket scientist; might escape the notice of a newbie, that's about it.


    Piracy, well, except for The Gauntlet, I have pretty much played clean the other contests at Patricianworld and Tavern's Side Room. More challenging, truthfully, focuses you more on the trading and building part of the game. I don't want to rob anyone of any fun, it's just that compared to Patrician 2, piracy just makes things too easy. Like trading at less than Patrician level, ha ha. My other Avatar is too big for this board, too many bits with the flagwave program attached, had to come up with a different one.


    With your indictments, you are one of the few I believe. I haven't downloaded the other games, but I don't think you will find many indictments on the other's records. As far as the S/L, I did play one version straight, almost to submission point, no arbitrage either. It would have come in at 4 million CV, just an also ran here. The current run, which is almost ready, five weeks to go, just to be competitive I hit the explorations dead on, everything, S/L of course plus I already knew where they were, ran a slight arbitrage in Lagoda and Novgorod, and a modification in Koln, only two or three ships altogether. It will come in with a few hundred businesses, CV looks like if I don't do something about it or slow way down around 11 or 12 million, several million in cash, not even one loan granted to anyone since it would just raise CV more. That would screw up points terribly, convoluted as you say this contest is; and you are right about that. I am still debating just sending it in that way for counting coup as a white dove, or just quitting building, donate boatloads of money to the churches or send off a few million to Brittany. And it all feels sleazy somehow. It's harder to get worked up about it since it wasn't all CV earned, just gotten with an exploit. If it bothers you about the team and points, I can just bow out, or wait until I have several years before submitting anything.


    As far as white doves and high piracy settings in the current game, by designers I meant the contest designers, not Ascaron programmers. The pirates are easy to defeat, anyways. All my ships except for about 18 crayers are ex-pirate ships. If you don't want to bother with them, just use five or so fully armed crayers as escorts. On automatic they will win every time. Just parking a holk with one wine on board near their origin nests, no weapons, full crew, cutlasses, captain good sailor and fighter will keep them off the board and out of your hair, too. The pirates always attack ships like that. Sucker bets.


    And yeah, I am bored, too, tonight.

  • Baltic Trader:


    I don't think any of us care who stands where. The teamstandings are more or less a fun statistic. I am sure you will finish more than just 1300 until December 31st, even though you are, according to rookie, a notorious re-starter. :D

  • I think that ther are different oppinions how to play the game. The best way to let everybody play its own style. But how can I be managet thet different styles result in same points.


    There ist on way witch fits best to the rules.


    Arbitage:


    In this contest Arbitage is needed to get the amout of money wath gives maximum point fro CV. From my point of view it's a mistake in formula design.


    Save load:


    S/L ist not to control. So somon has plundered 10 towons without beeing catched. This can be luck or S/L as well.


    Piracy:


    This is a fun factor. And for some newer Players the only way to rescue a game.

    Niemand braucht ein einfaches Spiel! Ein gutes Spiel reicht!


    Für die Dunkle Seite! Auch Piraten wollen Handeln!

  • After receiving some answers to my post in the main forum I'll also post my new ideas here:

    • Minimum # of starting towns but none of these have cloth, wine, or pottery (removed lack of furs since AFAIK furs cannot be triggered in new production towns).
    • The starting towns will have sufficient business to cover all basic supplies and will have the maximum number of whalers; I believe that is 5.
    • All starting towns are Hanse cities and will require a mint and a minimum ratio of rich:wealthy:poor with penalty points given for too little wealthy/rich at the end.
    • All starting towns must be fully supplied, by own production, with cloth, furs and wine and, maybe, pottery too. Imports are allowed but do not count for supply purposes. At the end the number of businesses is multiplied with their yearly average output to determine if full supply has been reached.
    • The player must tweak his production to get the necessary goods in the new production towns and due to the critical limits of business per town will need more than one town that produces wine.
    • Points are awarded based on a timeline where a later date of accomplishing full supply will require more citizens with a maximum set at, i.e. 1320 requiring 1 m citizens. So, if for example you complete full supply in 1315 you would need, let's grab one from left field, 700,000 citizens. The details have to be worked out, probably on a straight-line scale.
    • Since CV does not count you can employ every trick in the book. Who cares if you attract 100.000 beggars, population is measured in terms of rich, wealthy and poor und you have to supply them, period. So you have CV of 6 Billion - nice, but no points allocated for it.


    How do lily-white players make money? Arbitrage or, strictly trade with the top money makers: IG. and furs And then there is import/export.


    It may be necessary ti stipulate a minimum population. i.e. 15,000 in the Hasne towns to prevent that some smart Alecstops developing the toiwn after building the 2nd wall to keep the requiremnts foe luxury goods as low as possible.
    The trick would be to get the right goods in the starting towns and complete the task with just 6 towns, two with cloth, two with pottery and two with fish. Maybe it could even be done with just 4 new towns. Planning will obviously be a prime requirement but the consumption by social class is reedily avaialbe for everybody so there are no secrets. For example if you had to have 20% rich, and 30% wealthy you can quickly calcualte what the demand by 3,000 rich, 4,500 wealthy and 7,500 poor (using the 15,000 minimum) would be.

    Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new
    Wer niemals einen Fehler gemacht hat, hat noch nie etwas neues probiert Albert Einstein

    Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 Mal editiert, zuletzt von bizpro ()

  • So, why did I learn how to make endless rows ?( :D


    This seems to be somewhat along the lines of a campaign and I can imagine that it could be completed considerably faster than this year's contest.